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原帖由 east_life 于 2009-5-11 19:07 发表 
就当战争没打算了,去别的地方继续宣扬你的虎1脆皮论吧.先祝你成功.
我的错误,角度看得不是很准确.豹G的侧面装甲到底是多少?,如果真只有50MM,那么它47T的重量怎么来的.还有册面连续弹飞M4A3穿甲弹的一些战例.
虎1的多10T哪来的.麻烦分析一下,老是我在那费劲,别人两句话完事,我不平衡,咱们不妨换个角色,我期待高论.
呵呵，各国所有参战重型坦克中中，虎1的前装甲最弱，这是客观存在的事实，根本不需要我去宣扬
2战后期盟军和苏军所有主力AT gun（美制76mm、美制90mm、俄制85mm、俄制100mm、英制76mm)都能在正常交战距离上威胁虎1 102mm@8度的首上装甲，要打穿炮盾110mm的垂直装甲也不是什么难事
以下数据引用自Panzer-Kampfwagen_Panther_und_seine_Abarten一文
首先是SdKfz171 zKpfw V Ausf.D/A/G Panther的装甲分布比例图：
然后是SdKfz181 PzKpfw VI Ausf.E Tiger的装甲分布比例图：
以上内容，参考资料包括：
然后是各国主力ATG的穿深数据：
英国的17pdrs和77mm oqf：
美国的90mm m3：
苏制100mm D10s：
苏制122mm D25T：
以上数据来源于Gun vs Armour网站，参考资料包括（部分）：
Chamberlain, Peter and Doyle, Hilary L.: Encyclopedia of German Tanks of World War Two. London, 1978; revised 1993; reprinted 1995 and 1996. ISBN: 1854092146. This is the most comprehensive source on German tank guns. There is a review of this book on the Amazon.com web site.
Chamberlain, Peter and Ellis, Chris: British and American Tanks of World War II. Arms and Armour Press, London, 1969. Last reprinted 1997. ISBN: 0668043040. This edition is currently out of print.
Chamberlain, Peter and Ellis, Chris: The Churchill Tank: The story of Britain’s most famous tank, 1939-1965. Arms and Armour Press, London, 1971. ISBN: 0853680426. This edition is currently out of print.
Chamberlain, Peter and Gander, Terry: Anti-Tank Weapons. Arco Publishing Company, New York, 1974. ISBN: 0668035056.
Crow, Duncan: British AFVs 1919-1940. Profile Publications, Windsor, 1970. ISBN: 0853680010.
Crow, Duncan: British and Commonwealth AFVs 1940-1946. Profile Publications, Windsor, 1971. ISBN: 0853830029. This edition is currently out of print.
Devey, Andrew: Jagdtiger. The Most Powerful Armoured Fighting Vehicle of World War II. Vol. 1, Technical History. Schiffer Publishing Ltd., 1999. ISBN: 0764307509. This is probably the most detailed book on any single vehicle that I've seen. Volume 2 gives the combat history of the vehicle with detailed accounts of small unit actions which would be of interest to wargamers.
Etat-Major de l’Armée, SAET: Armement des chars et véhicules blindés. Undated but in a 1936-39 file.
Fleischer, Wolfgang: Die Deutschen Panzerjägertruppe 1935-1945. Podzun-Pallas Verlag, 1998.
Fletcher, David: Mechanised Force: British Tanks Between the Wars. HMSO, London, 1991. ISBN: 0112904874. This edition is currently out of print.
Gudgin, Peter: Armoured Firepower. The Development of Tank Armament 1939-45. Sutton Publishing, 1997. ISBN: 0750913878.
Haupt, Werner: Panzer Anklopf Kanone. Podzun-Pallas Verlag. English edition: The 37mm Pak. Schiffer Publishing Ltd., 1998. ISBN: 076430397X.
HMSO: Churchill Tank - Vehicle History and Specification. HMSO, 1983. ISBN: 0112904041. A reprint of some parts of the Sevice Instruction Book for the Churchill tank.
HMSO: Cromwell Tank - Vehicle History and Specification. HMSO, 1983. ISBN: 0112904033. A reprint of some parts of the Sevice Instruction Book for the Cromwell tank.
Hogg, Ian V.: Allied Artillery of World War Two. Crowood Press, Ramsbury, 1998. ISBN: 1861261659. This new edition has much less data in it and is more of a general history than a technical reference, compared to the similarly named older edition British and American Artillery of World War Two, also by Hogg.
Hogg, Ian V.: British and American Artillery of World War Two. Arms and Armour Press, London, 1978. ISBN: 0882544616. A comprehensive and detailed book. Make sure you get this older edition rather than the similarly named newer edition Allied Artillery of World War Two, also by Hogg. The newer edition has much less data in it and is more of a general history than a technical reference.
Hogg, Ian V.: German Artillery of World War Two. Greenhill Books Lionel Leventhal Ltd., 1997. ISBN: 1853672610. Comprehensive and detailed book on every German and captured (by Germany) infantry, mountain, field, heavy field, heavy, railway, anti-aircraft, anti-tank, coastal and recoilless artillery piece and ammunition. A vital reference.
Hunnicutt, R. P.: Pershing: A History of the Medium Tank T20 Series. Presidio, 1999. ISBN: 0891416935. Comprehensive and detailed book on the development of American Pershing tank. A large volume similar in scope and detail to Hunnicutt’s earlier work on the Sherman tank (below).
Hunnicutt, R. P.: Sherman: A History of the American Medium Tank. Presidio, 1994. ISBN: 0891410805. Comprehensive and detailed book on the development of American medium tanks, including pre-war developments, the M3 Lee/Grant and the M4. British versions are also covered. A huge volume, it is expensive but is the reference work for this vehicle.
Jentz, Thomas L.: Germany’s Panther Tank. The Quest for Combat Supremacy. Schiffer Publishing Ltd., 1995. ISBN: 0887408125. Another very detailed book from Jentz, with plenty of first hand reports from the troops that used the Panther.
Jentz, Thomas L. and Doyle, Hilary L.: Germany’s Tiger Tanks. VK45.02 to Tiger II: Design, Production & Modifications. Schiffer Publishing Ltd., 1997. ISBN: 0764302248. This is part two of a three volume series covering the Tiger tanks.
Jentz, Thomas L.: Germany’s Tiger Tanks. Tiger I & II: Combat Tactics. Schiffer Publishing Ltd., 1997. ISBN: 0764302256. This is part three of a series covering the Tiger tanks.
Jentz, Thomas L. and Doyle, Hilary L.: Panzer Tracks No.4. Panzerkampfwagen IV - Grosstraktor to Panzerbefehlswagen IV. Darlington Productions, 1997. ISBN: 0964879344.
Jentz, Thomas L.: Panzer Truppen. The Complete Guide to the Creation & Combat Employment of Germany’s Tank Force, 1933-1942. Schiffer Publishing Ltd., 1996. ISBN: 0887409156. This is Volume 1 of 2, the second book is listed below. An incredibly detailed description of the organisation and use of Germany’s Panzer forces from platoon to divisional level. It includes many combat and experience reports which are used to relate the thoughts of the troops that fought in the Panzers. As the emphasis is on the organisation of the Panzer forces there is not very much information on particular tanks (these are covered more thoroughly in other books by Jentz).
Jentz, Thomas L.: Panzer Truppen. The Complete Guide to the Creation & Combat Employment of Germany’s Tank Force, 1943-1945. Schiffer Publishing Ltd., 1996. ISBN: 0764300806. This is Volume 2 of 2, the first is listed above. The comments above apply equally for this volume, a superb book on the organisation of the Panzer Truppen.
以上所有的参考资料都可以通过ISBN索引查到，欢迎举证
从射表上看，
英制76.2mm 17pdrs使用MK.VIII T被帽穿甲弹的时候，在1000码穿深是130mm，使用MK I T 脱壳穿甲弹的时候，在1000码穿深是192mm，这还是打30度倾斜的靶得出的数据，对垂直装甲只会更高；
俄制100mm D10s使用BR-421D带风帽的钝头穿甲弹的时候，在1KM穿深是170mm；俄制122mm D25T使用BR-471带风帽的钝头穿甲弹的时候，在1KM穿深是147mm；
美制90mm m3使用M82被帽穿甲弹的时候，在1000码穿深是122mm；使用M304重芯穿甲弹的时候，在1000码穿深是199mm，以上数据同样使用30度倾斜RHA靶板打出，对虎1的垂直装甲只会更高
从上面的装甲和火炮数据来看，虎1的正面防护在二战各国后期几种主力火炮面前实际上是很脆弱的，虎1首上只有102mm垂直装甲，经过表明硬化处理K=2300-2400左右，相当于110-120mm左右的RHA；在面对上述火炮时，正常交战距离上会被轻易洞穿，即使是弱很多的俄制85mm zis-53或者美制76mm m1，在800M的正常交战距离上也足够对付虎1
虎1战绩之所以出色，是因为问世时间早，42年底就在北非和列宁格勒方向投入了使用，而盟军和苏军对它有威胁的直射火炮直到19944年6月之后才开始大量出现。虎1的绝大多数战果都是早期欺负盟军中轻型坦克得来的，在后期面对加强了火炮和装甲的盟军中型坦克，优势已经大为削弱（虽然还是有一些优势），面对后期盟军的重型坦克（M26、IS2之类），基本都处于劣势了。
再看豹G的装甲，引用我上面的图
如果你眼睛没有问题的话，就会发现豹G的侧面到底是不是50mm（根据马德尔穿深公式，算上23度倾斜之后大概有58-60mm左右的垂直防护
而它要面对的对手：
美国的76mm m1a1和75mm m3：
苏制85mm zis53：
苏制76mm F34：
英制57mm 6pdrs
其中美制76.2mm m1a1和苏制85mm zis-85的穿深足够在2KM以上打穿豹的侧面，这个就不讨论了；豹G脆弱的侧面防护面对战场上大量存在的中小口径火炮也不一定靠谱，比如大量存在的T34-76装备的F34 76mm炮使用BR-350A 带风帽的钝头穿甲弹，在1KM处穿深正好为60mm；盟军那边大量装备于M4的75mm m3火炮使用M61被帽穿甲弹的时候，在1KM处穿深同样可以到60（30度倾斜数据）。
在库尔斯克参战的豹D甚至有被苏军45mm ATG侧面击穿的记录，下面是苏军45mm ATG的穿深：
1942年型45mm ATG使用普通AP的时候，在500M距离上穿深为61mm，而使用重芯穿甲弹的时候，在500M距离上穿深高达81mm，这两个都是足够威胁豹侧面的数据
可以看到，对于二战坦克800-500M的正常交战距离来说，豹系列45-50mm小角度倾斜的侧面装甲面对盟军在42年以后任何档次的直射火炮都是非常危险的。你前面胡扯的豹侧面防护很强的言论根本站不住脚
[ 本帖最后由 来不及思考 于 2009-5-12 01:45 编辑 ] |
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楼主: east_life
发表于 2009-5-11 19:50:26
纯顶east_life~~事实比理论更有说服力~~ 
