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标题: SI 官方对金手指（射门多，进球少）的态度(2007) [打印本页]

作者: 海钟瑞 时间: 2009-5-19 23:03:10 标题: SI 官方对金手指（射门多，进球少）的态度(2007)

以下是SI 官方人员 PaulC 对玩家反映的金手指问题的一大段回复，由于太长，简要翻译下内容

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玩家：My name is Kolbjørn Holmen, I`m from Norway and have been playing CM/FM since the start in 1993. My issue for sending you this email is a MAJOR consern regarding the latest issues of the game Football Manager, espesially the newest version FM08. I can inform you that I`m speaking on behalf of thousands of FM-players!

PaulC：Thanks for the post/mail Kolbjørn.

master_wu ：以上为互相寒暄，不做翻译
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玩家：
I have a LARGE amount of chances, both on and off target (between 25-40 all together), while the opponent varies between 0-10 approxamately. One on ones are more or less impossible to concede into goals. The opponents goalkeeper have a tendensy, regardless of his rating and stats, being man of the match. Not seldom I have 25-40 shots on goal, the opponent 1-2, Result: 0-1 loss. It is the most unlikely and unrealistic misses in the history of football. Open goal, one on ones etc. It dosent happen as a fluke once in a while either. It is concistent! It is obvious there is a major bug within the game engine regarding this. It can appear that SIGames have worked on how to make us players score fewer goals. Make more "realistic" results!? - "Let`s program a block! More or less ALLWAYS few goals, no matter the amount of chances. Decrease the % and make the AI goalie a "wall". This is more damaging then positive for the game, regarding pleased and happy customers. More or less it`s totally absurd and extremly "hair-pulling"!

PaulC：Firstly, you say "chances". Are they chances or are a percentage blocked or wasteful shots? I was watching a pkm the other day and noticed at least 6-8 blocked shots. There is an argument we should have a separate count for them in a future version. Perhaps shots on target, shots off target and blocked shots should be the 3 counts?

One on ones. Actually I agree players should be more clinical and keepers are too effective. I also believe there are too many due to defensive lines being a little slow to drop back under pressure. This is being looked into for FML beta initially, and if we can improve it without detracting from the overall FM experience then the fixes will be used for a future patch as well.

I should point out here that we always tune the match engine according to 100's of games between AI teams, as we see the FM world that surrounds the player as the first priority. Now the stats there tell a different story to that experienced by some human players in both FML and FM. The 8.0.1 patch averages about 22 shots per match ( 12 home team, 10 away team ) with an on target ratio of around 50%. The number of goals is around 2.6 per game. This stacks up fairly well vs real life although I believe the on target ratio may ironically be a little high.

Now the issue on these forums seems to be that some human teams produce more shots. We have comparable stats for the FML beta using the same engine with only human tactics used and there are around 6 more shots per game and goals are around 3.0 per game. This suggests human players of FM and FML play slightly differently and more offensively to their AI counterparts. What we are looking into is the reasons for this and whether it should be considered a bug or just an inevitable natural occurance.
master_wu ：玩家说自己有大把机会（每场有25-40脚射门，对手大约0-10脚），结果却0-1输了，对方门将不管表现和统计，成为当场最佳；1对1不进等等，不符合现实。比赛引擎为了制造“真实”的比分，减少进球率，制造对方门将金手指，破坏了游戏的真实性……
SI说，第一，你说的“机会”是不是机会？是不是一部分被挡出的或浪费的射门也被算做是机会？他也看过一些玩家提供的PKM（比赛录象），他注意到至少有6-8脚是被阻挡的射门。这是个有争议的话题，SI 准备在将来的版本中把他们分开来统计，可能是射正、射偏以及射门被挡出。
至于1对1，SI 承认球员太冷静了，门将也太有效率了，但他也相信这也是由于防线太慢，在压力下不能及时回防所致，他们也在一边开发FML（FM LIVE），一边在FML beta版中查看这个问题，如果我们能够改善这个问题而不破坏游戏整体的性能，他们会在以后的补丁中修正
他还指出，他们经常会根据 AI 间的100多场比赛来调整引擎，现在玩家和他们自己的统计有出入，他给出了官方的如下数据：801平均每场22脚射门（主队12，客队10），其中50%射正，平均每场进球2.6个。虽然他感到射正率稍高，但已经不错了
论坛上反映的问题似乎是玩家的队伍制造了太多的射门，我们使用玩家的战术做了比较，发现每场只有6脚左右的射门和3个进球，我们正在查看出现这种情况的原因，从而决定这是一个BUG，或者这仅仅是不可避免会发生的情况
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玩家：It is not neccesary to ask/tell me about ingame changes that might change the problem. I have played FM08 since it came out 18th of october 2007, more or less 6-12 hours a day, 5 days a week. I have tried EVERYTHING; optimal training, 100`s of different formations and tactics, both my own, and recommended on several different forums, RoT++, the best players, max moral, play fast, play slow, wide, narrow, direct, short etc... The problem is definately not me, since I TOTALLY dominate the matches (25-40 chances), but the match-engine/program. I have also read 100`s of threads in 10`s of different forums, and seen that this is a common and large concern amoungst more or less all your users. It is obvious that SIGames has programmed a "block" for scoring to many goals, regardless of the chances. This is something you should resolve in the next patch, if you don`t want to lose a large amount of players. It is working against it`s meaning, and are making MANY players not finding any point in playing the game anymore. It is TOTALLY pointless.
PaulC：What I have to say here, for the umpteenth time, is that the match engine does not differentiate between human and AI teams. It simply acts on the data and tactics fed into it. There is no "block" on human teams to keep scores down. If you dont believe me then that's your perogative obviously. You will also realise that if we tune creativity/shots down to improve the human stats then the AI game world will break - something we would never contemplate as its the cornerstone of FM.

Well the fact that the AI teams have less shots yet still manage respectable score suggests it isnt pointless or impossible. What we want to know is what causes this. If we accept that the one on ones issue isnt spot on there are still too many shots by some human tactics, so what will help us to improve this in the future is feedback. Is there a combination of tactical settings that causes pointless shots? I asked in another thread if it may be related to narrow formations - ie congested play outside the area meaning less options to pass or run? Or could it be that certain high tempo direct styles leave strikers isolated up front and with no pass or run options despite not being ideally placed? All feedback and ideas are most welcome. Like you we want the game to be perfect - or at least as perfect as it can be at any point in time!

I hope this response is taken in the spirit its intended!

Cheers,
Paul
master_wu ：玩家认为 SI 设计和一个阻止高比分的程序，应该在下个补丁中修正……
SI 说，比赛引擎对玩家和 AI 来说并没有不同，仅仅在数据和战术反馈下工作，没有这样的阻止程序来降低玩家的得分率，如果你不相信我，你是你的权利。你也应该意识到，如果我们调低了创造/进球的数量，改善了玩家的统计，那 AI 的世界也将被破坏。一些事情我们从未考虑，因为那是FM的基础。
AI 队伍用比较少的射门取得了不错的比分并不是无意义不可能的。我们想知道的是是什么原因造成的（下面说了一些可能的战术设置）……所有的反馈和建议我们都是欢迎的

作者: 海钟瑞 时间: 2009-5-19 23:03:46

译者注：
从SI的测试过程看，FM并没有把电脑和玩家区别对待，也就是说，不存在所谓“电脑作弊”——我指的是，电脑会将玩家区别于电脑对待。
我也有某种主观感觉，即如果你连胜，某个时候会陷入低谷，但就算真的这是游戏代码的一部分，那么电脑的球队也会如此。

原文作者：
WWFAN，如雷贯耳，名声在外，堪称全球FM世界战术第一人

相对而言，在顶级球队中指教更为艰难
如果你执教的是一支豪门球队，那么将会更加艰难。

原因：

1.你没有声望，所以球员们不会100%投入。

2.你虽然没有声望，但你的职位需要你必须拥有顶级的执教能力（译者按：这点不能忽略！很多玩家的看法是使用强队更为容易获胜！）。这是的造成过多射门不进的主要原因。（译者按：换句话说——不管你愿不愿意承认——是战术原因）

所谓射门次数过多，而且大多不进的"BUG"

这一现象只发生在较强的球队身上，为什么？很简单，因为电脑实力如果较弱，面对强队时将采取积极防御策略，并且尽力压缩空间，从而造成强队射门过多而且鲜有进球。你可以创造很多仓促的射门机会，因为你的战术并没有真正创造高质量的机会，说明玩家的战术面对死守的球队难以奏效。这并不是说战术不好，只是说，这个战术不适合死守的球队。射门过多的问题一般不太出现在对手是豪门的情况下（译者按：这是个相对概念，如果你攒了大把球星，那任何队都要死守了），因为豪门一般不采用死守战术，因而你的那些“巨星”们得以有足够的空间和时间按照他们的能力数值进行发挥。

依我之见，真正的问题在于2d比赛的呈现方式，而非bug。为什么这么说呢？2d的比赛引擎，使你无法知道某个射门机会具体到底是不是必进的黄金机会（译者按：我用南昌，很少遇到单刀不进到不可思议的程度，我看到的单刀球，一般都是前锋晃开门将，射半空门入网），而且由于2d比赛引擎的引入，解说比cm3时代更为简略，所以也不可能从解说中了解该机会究竟是否足以导致进球。因此，很多时候，你判断自己发挥的唯一标准就变成了射门数和进球数的比例。如果这个进球率仅为5%，很可能是你的战术有误，所以如果你必须面对事实，调整战术。即使你不断发帖贴n场这种比赛的截图，也没有任何说服力，也于事无补。请开动脑筋，尝试各种不同的战术，也许会有用。

作者: 海钟瑞 时间: 2009-5-19 23:04:04

以下是战术建议。如果你不想看就算了。

10条针对射门过多的战术贴士

1.不要使用Target Man(译者按：我记得翻译成“进攻核心”？由于我没有汉化版，所以请您核对)
因为使用TM将限制进攻套路，将进攻变成一维，对手很容易防守。

2.如果你有合适的球员，请使用Playmaker(译者按：这个翻译成什么我确实忘了，进攻组织者？)
他将有助于保持控球率，并且提高射门机会的质量。

3.后防线设为”深“(deep)，宽度设为”宽“(wide)，这样空间就大了。

4.设置3个自由人(free role)，他们都必须设置高自由度(creativity freedom)，这样就能创造意想不到的机会，这种机会很难防守。

5.放慢节奏(tempo)，减少传球次数，提高控球率，并且提高进攻质量，具体为：
如果你是欧洲大陆的球队，节奏设置为1-3
如果你是英格兰球队，节奏设置为4-5
注意！你可以在某个时间段，突然加快节奏！这样电脑将很难适应突然的变化！

6.保持对你对手的高压力！使用凶猛的铲断方式(tackling: hard)，这样可以在前场获得更多机会。
所有人的逼抢都要高(closing down)，但是后卫队员相对要低一点。

7.采用区域，松散的盯人方式，来增加进攻空间（译者按：你防守的空间决定了进攻空间。为什么？攻防转换是瞬间的）

8.采用大量身后球(Through Ball)

9.(这条07有用，08不一定)
边路球员和前锋控住球(Hold up ball)，这样你的中后场队员就有时间跑到位参与进攻，涌入对方禁区。

10.左右边锋和边后卫要套上套下(overlap)，并要增加无干扰传中机会。

作者: qianliuliu 时间: 2009-5-19 23:06:34

看看先~~~~~